My muller build

[Harry]

That is fast and I hear you on the still in development. I made several changes on mine getting it to provide the action needed. In the end what you are after is simply squeeze and fluff.

[dallen]

that which looks like a monster stiring vane has a right angle on the bottom, its what I cut off the end when I shortened it, it goes across the bottom about .5 " up from the floor of the tub, Oh yea I welded the tub to the bottom last night, its about 3 inches high. with a u shaped notch for a 2 inch pipe cut in it. was originally some type of pipe support that I picked up that the Junk yard.

I'm not sure right now how much pressure I can put on the sand as the motor thats on there came off my 18 year old Enco 12 ", don't want to burn it up. I am planing on something in the manner of 2 HP thats whats on my Mill so when I change it out, one reason for leaving the plate stick out plus it gives me a place to park the Joe Cup ya know.

Im thnking something in the range of a 70 tooth sprocket on the drive shaft, or maybe another Intermeideate shaft in the same size sprockets that I have, should drop the speed but keep the same of make more torque, She started with that much sand in it without pushing it. I sprayed in a little H2O from a spray bottle that green sand neveer had it so good, I wanted to ram something up an pour but it was too late. full dark time I got the toys put away.

Wheel, I have a couple of gears that I think I can use, ones about 2 inches wide, the other is like 4 inches both are around 8 inches in diameter. Yea I know they got teeth, they will either fill up with dirt or I can weld them up, got lots of stainless steel rod and some realy exotic stuff inconel monel stuff left from code jobs at a place I used to work, make for a nice no rust wheel surface.
Gotta run resturants call'n want'n ot know where I'm at, says their going to throw my plate away.
David

[Harry]

Those fears sound like they would make great wheels, I cant see the teeth hurting anything... call it traction

Are you planning on switching back and forth with oil and water based sand in the muller? When I first built mine I was still using greensand but once I got the petroband I completely switched over. Problem is so much is left behind in the muller that will break lose and mix into the next batch so it would need to be cleaned out pretty good or like I have done use it just for one type of sand.

If you do go with the blade type and petrobond you will likely find that oil sand is much more doughy that greensand and in that same test the whole load of sand would probably spun 'round and 'round like one big clump. That is why I have the striker plate to knock the sand off on each trip around and also why I have mine tilted up. I also put the door on the side for dumping (at the low point of course). Dumping takes close to 5 minutes with mine because the door is small and I have thought about making it bigger but it is kind of nice because it gets one final squeeze on the way out and no clumps could fit through. Sometimes (especially when it is cold) I will run sand that has been mulled already but has sat for awhile or that has been shaken out of a mold without pouring because of a failed pull. This I will run through with the door open to give it a good fluff.

[dallen]

I tried to answer this earlier today, but wouldn't you know it in the blip of a computer screen, I lost everything that I had written.

I am hoping to switch to oil bonded sand, that is my hopes. Because the greensand in Oklahoma dries out about as fast as you get it mixed up in the summer. Either way I need a muller and this has been a nice build, I got most of the hard stuff taken care of quickly I think I started on the Drive that I posted pictures of first something like a month ago maybe a couple weeks earlier.
Tonight I finished most of the welding that there was to do on the legs, they were only tack welded on when I ran it last night and took the video, so I think that I got a pretty stable muller for it to not shake anymore than what it was running at, which I checked with a tach just a touch over 100 RPM. I difinately need to drop the speed some. But I don't want to loose any power or Torque cause I only have a one horsepower motor on it. And its old. I may find something at surplus center pretty cheap will have to look.

I keep floping back an forth over this greensand oilbonded sand issue, one has properties that will allow casting in hot weather without the sand drying out, the other has propeties that make it suitable for non ferrous metals over the other, of everyone says they do. I know one guy he switched an there's no driving him back, but he also had to build a muller. I guess I need to get him to come over and take a gander at what I have build an see what he thinks about sweeps and rakes and wheels. I found out tonight that the gear that I have is 8 inches in diameter, so it will fit inside a piece of 8 inch sch 40 pipe now I can make a wheel that will be 8 X 3, 4, or 5 wide. Hub, and spindle will be next of the list. Also with a wheel they can be harder to pull making them need more torque or power to push through the sand.

I don't know much about oil bonded sand but from looking at Leon's his isn't gummy, or doughy, but he says that if it gets moisture in it that it will turn to a big horrible mess, and then he has to Hang a burner that he made special for drying the moisture out. and the only place I have for this is outside.

Well I guess I better go check on the Ice Tea I got pretty warm while welding the legs up,

One thing for sure is, it doesn't take a lot of water in this thing with it spinning around and around to get the sand to where it will stick together like glue an not to you, amazing i will tell you, couple shots from the pump up spray bottle that sand sucks the water up like its not going to get anymore. I get some relief on the gear train I'll try to do a video with it running and me sparying H2O into the tub.

David

[Harry]

I have never gotten my sand wet so I cant say what it would do. I know one of the cats pissed on some sweep on the ground awhile back and it was sitting in puddle on top. I can imagine if the water was to get mixed in it could be messy. Keep it in a plastic tote with a lid on it if there is any concern and I think it would be ok... just make sure it is cool before dumping into plastic.

AFAIK there is no issue with using ferrous metals in petrobond sand. Naturally the hotter the metal the more that will be blackened. I have quit removing the blackened sand and just mix it back in and though I am only casting aluminum right now I cast quite a lot and the sand has held up through so many pours that when I do need to replace it it has been paid for many times over. Batching your own it is really cheap and if you can find a local supplier for batched sand it should be just over $0.50 a pound depending on the quantity you buy.

There is no way I would go back to greensand, the sand I get from IFSCO is just too good to imagine something else could be better and not having to do anything to the sand to keep it up other than running it through the muller makes it very easy to keep the molds moving.

[4cylndrfury]

thats a great start to a muller dallen. i think once you have the inner tooling sorted, youll be quite pleased!

ive never used greensand, but my petrobond clone sand is so good, like harry, i cant imagine greensand could compare. i also have no muller. i have about 50lbs or so of mixed sand which i keep in a 5 gal bucket. i mull by hand and it works just fine. one day when i can build a workshop separate from the house, i will incorporate a dedicated casting space with a molding bench, a muller, and a foundry area for the furnace all under roof. maybe then i will mix up a few hundred lbs of real petrobond and justify a muller build. till then, its all arm strength.

[dallen]

Well I can tell you this you don't want to get a tote full of greensand flooded with rain water, it may be pure as the driven snow but it makes one hell of a bunch of mud. I guess that is what really started this mulle build in the first place. That and the fact that here where I am at I can pretty much cast anytime of the year, now that depends on the person, and four or five other things like, is it to windy cause I don't want to burn the world and Los Alamos down, is it too rainy cause I don't like being in the rain, is it to cold self explanitory, is it to hot same thing as cold I don't take the heat to well after a 5 way bypass. That should pretty much explain my prioritys for casting, I don't have a roof over my stuff all three furnaces are spread across the yard hopfully killing grass while I slowlytype this up. I do plan to maybe throw up a roof to shelter the stuff with but who knows I've live here for thirty years and haven't put it up yet.

So the I guess two big draw backs to greensand to me are, if its not under roof with the hot Oklahoma sun beating down on it, you guessed it it dries out and fast. I have had the face of a mold turn flash dry like you had burned Alcohal off on it in a matter of seconds because of hot dry air.
Thats the problem in the summer. Winter time differant story, its not drying out, its one big lump the moisture in it will freeze into one solid lump. now what you going to do with this.

So with petrobond/oilbonded sand petrobond is nothing but a brand name that everyone hangs on their version of it. Well in the summer it won't dry out. and in the winter it won't freeze. Thats the two most important things to me that can happen to it. I don't have to be sold on the virtures of oil bonded sand ITS better by far. If you have the tools to handle it. Now people tell me I need a wheel to make the stuff and mix it with, I can put a wheel in the thing. I also have other issues with it that are not apperant in the video, yeppers it moves dirt. But the motors too small and too old. It runs way to fast 110 rpm actually need less than fifty, so i have to make gearing changes, I don't want to getthis change wrong I want it to be a one shot deal, I don't want a sprokett that is going to lay around for eons eating up space.

The Wheel, and the gearing problem hopefully taken care of today, maybe not installed but taken care of.

I really don't see why it won't make/mix oil bonded sand as it is. Everyone said I had to mull the greensand in a muller, most of what I have is/was mixed by hand in a bucket, or in a tote with a shovel. It works fine, actually a little better after running it thru the muller and adding a spray of water a little at a time. All this does in to distrubute the H2O more evenly than I can by hand in the tote.

All that I see a muller doing is rolling the sand around and coating it with bentonite be it Green or Oil both are the same at this point in the tub, with one you add water, with the other you add some oil. How much pretty much depends on the person putting it in, Type by the words of the mouth piece at RETCO who sells high dollar petrobond oil, his recommendation was used motor oil said it would work as well if not better than the petrobond oil they sell.

The change in color from Red to Black is because of the carbon in the oil burning not totally burned off, kinda like in your favorite engine thats got all that crud laying up in the valley blocking the oil return holes causing the lifters to stick, Quaker State's great for this. GreenSand or water bonded which it is, doesn't turn black because theres no oil and thus no carbon, yes there is a little, enough to make the sand look dirty, but not black.

Now for the thing that a lot of people wish they had close to them. I don't need either one Oil or Water. I have a guy that for a slight sum of the coin of the realm, will gladly mix and put into buckets for my Sand bonded with Sodium Silicate, by the hundreds of pounds if I so order it, the only other thing I would need is a CO2 tank handy, fire extingushers suck for this. I am of the opinon that if your going to use the stuff get the right SH$T in your tool shed. I use a paintball tank with a hose, and no regulator. I probalby used way too much gas but it worked. The first Roaster Transition was molded this way. Great Stuff, gotta watch our for how much you put in, too much it doesn't want to harden, too little it crumbles, just right your pattern better not have any highs and lows or your going to be working it to get it out.

I have enough of the Clay from RETCO, to mix probably a hundred pounds of oil bonded sand, first I have to get the mixer fixed, should of just went and got a cement mixer and modified it so it would have some thing t roll on the sand and something to scrape with namely a shovel when the stuff started sticking. I would be on my way. I know everyone says you can't use a cement mixer, I say their full of you know what.

Heck 4Cylinders, I'm happy as a Flea on a new Dog right now with what I built, I got most of the welding done on the legs last night, what little I ran it with over a hundred pounds of sand in it, it worked great. Flip a switch, watch the sand go round and round squirt bottle spray in some H2O sand starts doing its thing, when you grab a handfull/turn off machine first, its nice binds up doesn't stick to your hand has great greenstrength, meaning for those that don't know, take a hand full of sand squeeze it in you hand. You should be able to hold onto the end of it and shake it and it not fall apart. You know what more could a guy ask for in his foundry, I guess one thats store bought. but then I don't have 3000.00 dollars either I got less then 250 tied up so far in it.

The size patterns that I am pouring at the moment I need a hundred pounds of sand minimum. Yea I know I can make shollower skinnier, longer flask. With some Throw away lumber I really only need a flask about 2 inches deep by 16 by 6 to pour these flask panels that I have been working on which I need to get back onto. Now that I have figured out how to pour them without holes and shorts and all the rest of the problems that can befall a casting pour.

I think that what I am going to do is now that the thing is upside down and cleaned out, I have some clean unblended sand, that I will throw in some I think the stuff is still wet from the flooding rains that we had here awhile back run it in the tub and dry it out, they say 5 to l ratio, sand to clay. I bought one of the bags thought it was gonna be 10 but RETCO called and said that it was 5 so I got 5 lbs, two bottles of catlyist/way too much for 100 lbs of sand. And some used motor oil that I think Frank the Cat has been drinking out of you just never know about him. Throwing all this in the tub and fire up the generator and turn the damn thing on and see what rolls out the top, I might get some oil bonded sand, or I might end up with a red pilsbury dough boy that I will have to bury undercover of darkness to keep casting friends and felons from being aware of the fact that I screwed up.

I'm not trying to be differant of difficult, Harry you said that I could find a local supplier for batched oil bonded sand for $0.50 a pound, if I could get it for that I wouldn't be building a muller, I would buy a couple hundred pounds use it throw away the burned, hardened sand and when the pile got low buy some more. Hell $50.00 bucks a bag once or twice a month is nothing I used to drink that everyday and four times that on Saturday and Sunday. I can't get it/ oh I can get it just not cheap. Canfield and Joseph will gladly bring it in from KC at around $4.00 a pound, as much as I want or till the bank won't honor the check anymore.
Silica Sand, I can get local around 5 bucks a 80 lb bag all day long as much as I want, bentonite I can get in tulsa either Southern or Western, C&J handles both.

Anyway I'm burning daylight and I haven't even made coffee yet, sorry about such a long winded post, us old farts get that way when the only other person you have to talk to is in the mirror and theres just no damn way you can get him to agree with you that your right and hes wrong.

DAvid, Called some places by other names that I won't take the the time to mention here.

Now weres that rock and stone point chisel so I can carve out me another coffee cup, too replace the one the other dude in the mirror broke yesterday

Oh yea forgot to mention that I just sunk $125.00 into two stepper motors for the CNC project that might get off its feet here someday. now where did I put that rock at,,,,,,,,

[Harry]

You wrote all of that before coffee?

The reason I say you want wheels if batching your own sand is based on my own experiences. Now maybe it was just ingredient differences but when I was batching my own sand in a mixer/muller it was great but nothing like what I get from IFSCO batched in 500 lb mullers that have wheels in them. I do believe the wheels disperse the clay over the surface of the sand grains better than mixing does. Once batched it is there and simply mixing and breaking up the burned bits brings it back nicely.

$4.00 a pound for mixed sand is outrageous. I would send a 40 lb box for $50 and break it down a little from there for several boxes. Also someone ordered a couple of 250 lb barrels from IFSCO and they freighted it to them, seems like the total price was at or under $1 a lb.

I have the clay, oil and catalyst if you have sand. Getting the proper sand is a big part of getting the final product right. You can get the total cost on a 100 lb batch down under $0.40 a lb by mixing your own but to me it isnt worth it since IFSCO is about a 3 hr drive from me so I just go down there when I need supplies and Cameron has even brought stuff to me if it works out with his vacationing because he drives right by my house on the way up to the lake.

Let me know if you need any supplies and if you want me to mail you a small flate rate box it is only $5 postage which I will pay so you can have a handful of sand to use as a baseline for comparision to your own mix.

Also, you mentioned 5:1 sand to clay... that sounds way high. Try 7 lbs to 100 lbs of sand and 2 quarts of oil. Dry mix the sand and clay then slowly add the oil with the catalyst last. It will really change the way it mulls when you add in the catalyst so if the muller is bogging at all with just the oil remove half of it and add the catalyst into a smaller batch because it will really be fighting once it is in there.

Well I am off to get my second cup of fresh coffee Blue Bell Mountain, look on eBay for this bean. You can snag it pretty cheap most times and even the buy it now price isnt bad and we really like it.

[dallen]

Harry,

Yeppers I wrote all of that before I had any coffee, and what I did have was made by a little ole lady that was probably raised in the jungles of southeast asia, by a forgotten order midget trapist monks.
I will PM you with an order for some of the clay, you might as well get the profits, instead of some multi national corp that only wants to suck us dry so they can drive a new benz three times a year.
P.S. have found stuff to build wheel from and aquired a sheave and bushing today to lower speed to 50 RPM in the tub.
David.

this thing just dumped my reply to your post

[dallen]

Well I got up around 3 AM after getting in the sack at 11:30 last night. But we got some stuff done, have the stubb of a shaft bored out to the keyway( damn thing broke the only insert I had for my new "BRAND NEW" 3/4 inch boring bar), that did you know what. so now I gotta get on the horn and order up some of them cut litte long skinny diamond shaped inserts in a size 2.

Once the sun came up I grabbed up a cup of Burundi fresh roast that was sitting right were it was suppose to be, on the kitchen cabinet. Out the back door time by then so I grabs a handful of wrenches and heads for the Muller build thats sitting in the back yard.

Shimmed out the second intermediate shaft, sorry guys I don't know what else to call it, that fixed the tension on the chain going to the drive shaft in the tub. Worked on the first intermeidate this is the one that the belt from the motor is on. I think I posted some where that I had picked up a 13.9 sheave yesterday, well as of this morning its in place and running fine.

The sheave change did just what I needed, dropped the RPMs about 50 Revs. I stood out there playing around with the sand that I had, I actually put the whole tote, well not completely full liked about 4 inches being top level, into the tub. First time I did it with it running, second and this was after putting some water in too the sand. It really amazes me how little water it takes to wet a whole tub full of greensand, I mean its like the sand dries up, I spray in a cup little at a time, this last time I was playing I put in a little water the stuff is almost mub.

Well thats it and the resturant is holloring at me again for not being on time. So I'll grab the camera in a bit after it gets really hot and go take a snap or two and post em.

David